Darryl: Hi there, I'm Darryl King; I'm here with my co-host Ed Pelgen, couple of old internet Ex. Who been running our online agencies for over 20 years. We get together weekly to talk about all things online especially for small and medium business owners or executives who are still referring to their sites as their bloody web sites. Each week we look at tackling a range of online issues; put them in plain language, so you, me, everyone can understand them how to make their website work better for their businesses or (0:28…?). We are Episode 31 today and the topic is - How do you use remote workers to achieve your goals? How you doing Ed
Edmund: good, thanks Darryl. Yourself?
Darryl: yeah, really good; so, only to clarify what we mean use remote workers and goals; So in smaller businesses or in this age where; you know, where everyone's busy, stressed but I can't afford to put on a full time worker or you know their local environment; would be at Australia or UK wherever it might be. People look forward about workers to help and or they just say, I can't get it done. I can't get that content produced and we talked into content stuff about engaging writers from different things but it goes to everything about data loading
Darryl: manipulating photos, loading your blog post, editing your videos, audio transcriptions all of these services that our excuses why you're not doing your thing because you don't have enough time. So whenever you get someone say; I don't have enough time to do that, I can't do that; I can't check analytics; I can’t do my affiliate codes and ends up, whatever; someone else out there is using a remote worker to do that task.
Edmund: Yeah and I think it's important to point out that we're not talking about necessarily outsourcing or just shitty work that you don't necessarily want to do. There are some amazingly talented people especially in your industry, who are doing highly complex work but it's just; it ends up either being more convenient or it does end up being at a lower cost than what you might get domestically but it is flexible; there's a whole range of benefits associated with using remote workers that is flexible for you.
Darryl: Well and if you look at what invariably happens in online is that we get well-rounded individuals that are generalists. So they would have one area that they're a specialist in and then because the company can only afford one person; that person there might have been a programmer. Now we have a doing front-end design, SEO all the rest of it. And this is where problems gonna happen, right? So because your budget is one or two (2:25 Fulltime resources FTS) that you end up relying on those people to do things that might not be this skill set. Now there might enjoy that too and it might be good for everyone because they get skilled up and sometimes you just need people that are good in what they’re doing and like you said; it's about flexibility; so, if I only need a video editor, four hours a week max; like, that's not something that I want a full time person that Something to do it
Darryl: and if I need someone that's really cool at configuring email automation but I think, do it once a quarter or once a month what server do runs; so like you know there's lots of things,; it could be in any capacity I mean; I know; I know people that do draft; you know, like and they have people off shore that do the high quality work that worked with them for a long time and it is more cost effective. So they scale their business because it works that way; I mean I think business reasons are clear.
Darryl: Lot of people also do it but
Edmund: I think it's also important to point out that it's not just us online people, like agency folks and web designers; I mean we know accounting firms, legal firms, medical firms even who have outsourced teams; I know of a medical company that does complex brain scan analysis and actually sends the analysis over to India where a highly-trained neurosurgeon in India actually does the analysis and writes a quick report and sends it back; just so they can get through that more quickly. So it's across industries
Edmund: it's; it's the way the world works now.
Darryl: yeah and I think that's the reality of it and you know, I used to have much larger agency; we had around 40 people all local and you know; there; in each domestic country there are laws and regulations around it the cost basis on and in marketplace where you know, price gets driven down; you have to look for different options and you know and I know myself I resisted it for a long time because of whatever logical or illogical reasons the number of people that we might use whereas these days I just look for the talent that can do the job very well. The end result has been sometime were way more efficient, we got much more variety because; we you know, like you know, you think about a designers. Right? Designers have styles; painters have styles, photographers have stops you can identify famous artists, authors, whatever musicians like you could tell a song from REM from Queen Right? Like they don't sound the same but there's differences or something. Same is true with web design or graphic design that. You know, if you have someone's designing with you for three or four years everything they so to have their favor to it and even though they might be doing their best to recharge and refresh; that that's hard; so when you're doing lots of doing lots different clients. They have lots of difference. Do I want more female influences or make males. Do I want something that's more contemporary or how do I want to address those; sometimes its different persons do task
Darryl: so you know, there's lots of reasons but you talk about when you call shitty jobs; well, I don't like to refer to some shitty jobs; I'm talking about highly data driven repetitive tasks.
Darryl: they're not necessarily cheap but just work that needs to get done right? and I had an example the other day where I needed screenshots taken before-and-after stuff I wanted it done before the site swing live and if I’ve got a schedule that in in lots of ways I would call that low value for my time in that week because I had all these other priorities that were much higher in my mind; was it important work? well it really was because the deadlines for the release of the work were impending; so had to get done it was important; it wasn't important enough for me; so I have different assistants to do things I was like you know that's just something I'm gonna picture someone; so I handed over to my assistant, they do to work, we check you that they're doing it the right way initially in the slip and roll it
Edmund: That’s it.
Darryl: every times it’s needed I just do that work and I use Trello and stuff assign it at work and it's done and we communicate on slack and Trello, we talked about these in previous episode of communicating; near the geographic boundaries don't matter; I also have people as further in different geographies; they're not sitting in an office right here with me now; so it doesn't matter; who or what they are; can they do the work; can you communicate with them, can they do it and a lot of cases I find that the time differences work to the advantage as well because you set stuff up in your day later that day they're doing it and you're getting for early the next day yourself; you know, make amendments; you're actually speeding up time that can work both ways (7:20)
Darryl: yeah; look, so as far as I'm concerned. We've proved that there's value in doing it this way; so what I would like; given your experience; I'd like you to talk about one how you find these people, two how you assess them their competency and their skill set based on what you need and then maybe three how you manage them and train them so wanna give us some insight into that
Darryl: okay I’ll do my best; obviously I’ve never trained a book keeper remotely or an accountant lot of it's gonna be based around the type of stuff I do
Darryl: project management work, design, code you know SEO content that sort of stuff. There are lots of sites available and people listening made lots of them may heard none of them and these are only the ones that I tend to frequent about they're things like UPWORK which used to call Elance or I think I UPWORK and Elance thus other site they merge you know, I've reported that But freelancer.com, Fiverr there's a whole bunch of sites in that area where you can get creative people to do work. You know, UPWORK is much broader than creative work but these are the traditionally or the way I see them these are more by the job type
Darryl: particularly Fiverr and things; I; there you go looking; a long long time ago; I got a logo done for one of my book series from Fiverr oh no sorry from 99designs; so 99designs is another one. so you can only do project-based work and you go through that; I think we're taking a little bit more specifically around finding someone you're gonna work with on a more regular basis and you could do that through unknown designs. You can hook up and use them to do it but, the things to understand, there'll be a couple of business models that they work with one is there's no charges upfront to you the person hosting the work but the the worker might have you know the ticket put on the way so they might be losing some of their payment as a fee for it; As the employer pays a fee gets access to these people and then the payments are just paid to them and that's it or some combination; so some of them might just be paid as a job and then you get paid and and that's done; so I'm like 99designs you pay to post the job and then they can get it done and then that's the job including making the payment and 99designs come. On UPWORK you on all your ongoing work there's a percentage that's when the payment is automatically done that the up workers lose to UPWORK so I just paid my right; so if I'm paying someone $10 an hour for the job and they do 10 hours; Hundred dollar US; I pay $100 u.s. but the person on the other end won't get 90$. So that's just the way that works
Darryl: when I'm looking for; so those are the sites right? So then you talk about (10:24….?). How you get them and I have used models in the past where we used the term as BPOs. So in the Philippines or the organizations that recruit staff on your behalf manage them they have offices, desk, and computers. People kind of work there. they're getting holidays and lunches all those sorts of things and so you're committing two full-time people there then you will engage them and you go through that process and we've also done other forms historically; rule number one in making this work and I was actually; I think was yesterday I was reflecting on one of my team members; how we're really badly 10 - 15 years 15 years ago (11:07….?) we've got some Indian programmers, PHP programmers and they just did not work and we'd always said it was; just; it was really bad the communication; we would go with for people but my take on that down; I think the guys that talk a lot about like this guy Chris Tucker and people are get it right about using your virtual videos; virtual assistants and stuff; it's all about you the employer and how you set the expectations and setup the jobs and how you manage it; so before we even jump and I’m gonna do a design this on; you have to have a really clear idea of what you are looking to get done. What your expectation is and that needs to be understandable by both you and them; so, I just want a pretty design; that's not measurable right? so I need a design, it's gonna need to be in this format, this sizing I would expect it to be done in Photoshop, I would expect this, I'll expect that, it's expect that; those are clear expectations that you want to get done. so if you want a programmer you need to know what the end result is to go and recruit for them and it seems logical like you go that's common sense but every go; I wanna person that did video but we aren't clear about what the end result is so anyone that has the word video and we go looking for them; could be a potential target
Darryl: or is it; what I got. I don't want to sing a PHP developer. I understand what I mean by that so by having clear the outcomes that also means that my expectation of what language, knowledge don't have, what other things that I use the tops of tools don't understand the experience they might have, so I can filter down what I'm looking for immediately, I want more than five years’ experience, they want to use these frameworks you know; I'm looking for these things
Edmund: yeah; so would you say that's the success of the choice depends on to a large extent you really understanding what's involved right? If you're just new to the game you say, I just need someone to do this and that you're gonna get what you
Darryl: and with my virtual assistants I've had that problem a lot. I don’t want to do this one task. I'm just looking for someone experience and I flip there; it's just like recruiting anyone; if you; if you work with HR people and recruit is that good to that thing. The position description is really important; well this is a little bit different in that it's kind of a hybrid of we need them to do a task but there's elements of the position description you still need but then the success of whether they will do each task will come down to the brief for the task itself and what the outcome is didn't expect; so invariably the problems I've ever heard has been poor training notes, poor expectation deliver because in a lot of cases you are going to get someone that doesn't speak your language as their first choice; so there is always going to be minor communication things; so the best way to do that is to lay out really clear documentation about what you want and so there's some great books like the content engine and stuff like that where they talk about you know how they use standard operating procedures to do it like a lot of these ones do it but it's the same for anything. So if we; if I'm getting someone engaged can do photo manipulation right? We; so we know that the photos of this big this big this pixels; we've got a maximum file size for our site; all these rules around it; what it’s gonna look like any text on it, what font it's gonna be, what size, position you know you can use this type of color; whatever; you know those things right? You just lazy if you don't put them into this that's thick alright? So if they become a standard operation Procedure. Any photo then you get this person; you test them and we'll get to testing a little bit more and they don't follow the instructions so you ask again reread the instructions, does that match the instructions on them? Yeah it does; okay, well a dozen you can explain it and then from that point on you would hope they would then have the additional knoledge they didn't understand and then that helps you measure the effectiveness of whether that person is doing the job well for you; so that's my word of warning before we talk and how to maybe recruit them and how to manage them probably is that; it will all come down to you; if you do not have the time or will not make at the time to train them properly; you won't get the great results and when you read the bad reviews on things; yes, there are freelance workers and remote workers that just screw up and they don't do a good job and they have you comet but invariable if you do the right work to hire the right person you get the results based on what you put into it and I see that every day with my turn when I get rush and I skip out on the brief there's a normally hit banging when the design comes back or let it (15:40…?) come back; what what's happen here?
Darryl: you know, what went wrong? When I've done the spec properly, when I've written out the notes, created the cards properly put the examples and taken time to explain it probably. In most cases I get a hundred percent perfect back; and ultimately I save time so that's the cautionary tale; it's up to you and I believe everything I've read about that; that's success (16:03)
Edmund: it's true; so why don't we step into the process of how you would go about finding; let's say someone on an ongoing basis; like, what's your process because I quite enjoyed learning about that;
Darryl: okay, so let's just say I want to get someone that's going to do web design and now that I want them so I’m gonna use regularly to design websites for me; so I know what I want from that and I want someone that's going to create Photoshop PSD files for me and I'm gonna hand them to my front-end developers and my back-end developers into it; so I don't want; so I'm gonna go looking let's just go; so I'm gonna go and use the filter tools to search for people and the way I do it is a little bit different to the way some people do on jobs. I don't post a job and then everyone can come and get because that's like putting an ad in an online recruitment site and you get everything that comes in and I've got the guy that's just finished fishing on the fishing boat; it's something wants to be a web designer; I always wanted to be a web designer oh, here's my resume but that's not what I'm looking for and you'll get that ten times worse from these sites; so the way I do it is that I go looking; so I write my job and I lock them down so that only people I invite and then I go and I do filtered searches just for people and I spend the time to review the resumes histories of the people that are on there and I know immediately like, I'm going to go for this, I'm looking at this hourly rate range, I'm looking for people that might have been highly active recently; typically I'll look for that they've done a reasonable amount of work on the platform so that they've got experience working on it and might be over a thousand hours; you get a different criteria like this where that I've done it. Invariably they'll show some of their work; I'll read the notes and there's clues in it I mean someone that's got really really bad English might be their them not updated it in four years they could actually type it better they just don't know how to do that so you're gonna careful about making judgments but the ones that are really clear about the professionalism will have done the best job for smaller; I'd probably got someone check that was written well; so you can make some judgments look at the photos sometimes they're really just not great like they take something together at the beach and their board shorts anything that it's just not professional and and they might seem silly but use the normal stuff you would use like are they trying to present themselves properly are they thinking about this is a job or is it just and I can make money doing this you know because that might be the way that they work in their van. Remember they're working in their home, their place; so how do they present themselves and then I just go looking through experience; all the systems I've used a very short list into four words favoriting them all or whatever so I mark down ten, twenty, thirty, I; the way; I actually mechanically do it is all right click and open they profile in the new tab
Darryl: so I can really look at them you'll get a feel for the work; quite often you'll find there was a bunch of supposedly cranium designers; at one point I was looking and invariably the portfolio was shared across a whole lot of the profiles that just had these photos that like they were that stock photos; up for the you know the face and you know you get a feel for stuff that doesn't feel right. Now it could be that they've kept all of developments and they were just trying to get a whole bunch of people out there; they might have been an agency that was had all their team up on me
Darryl: but that's not kind of what I was looking for us, looking someone was gonna be able to work with us; so once I've done all that; then I would invariably start conversations with; it will depend on the platform; so some platforms that might be done by email some like Upwork; it can be done by they actually their own messaging tool and what I have a range of questions; can I start with; here’s a bit of a summary of the job, why do you think your experience would be good for them because what you'll get is a lot of automatic responses; right? It's a bit like the people that apply for jobs on job boards with the same CV generic and you actually ask specific questions you want answered. So I leave them through in one of the sites that I use which is onlinejob.PH where a lot of it's done through an email. I actually set up templated questions in Gmail which is I used to Gmail business; so as can responses and so what I did was; I had a bunch of questions so when they answered the first question; a couple of email oh, that's really cool how about this and I basically laid people down a pathway where I was able to get more data, see what their communication skills were like with what it led me to was how quickly did they respond, what were they doing you know sometimes, I get like four days before they answer the first email, like I'm looking for work and there's like and then they're following up doing one before (20:47) but you're not available time or was like it was a filtering system
Darryl: so I pre engineer those questions; I won't go into the detail that sort of stuff around the job but once I got them down whereas able to say you know what? I've got about three people here that I think sound interesting then would move them to a Skype interview or video interview or (21:07)
Darryl: that we're going to be talking, what time suits them and I arranged a time and then I have questions based on their answers; things that I'll ask them
Edmund: do you think doing a Skype interview is important I mean we both know that face-to-face communications give you a lot of insight into a person; so do you think that they add a lot of value
Darryl: They do depending on the wrong; look if I'm looking for someone long-term we've gotta be able to communicate; now, sixty or seventy percent of the time Ed might not be available it might be yeah using something like slack and email things like that but to get technical projects done; I've got to be able to speak English for me because that's the language I speak and we have to be able to communicate one of my coders will regular said can we just get on a voice call so we don't know his video; when we get on the voice call because the internet connection where he isn’t so great and we clarify stuff so quickly one of my designers same thing let's just briefly in voice so we don't do video all the time but when I'm interviewing a great example I had was I had someone that was doing 30-something hours a week for a client in Melbourne and know that I can fit your 1520 hours in as well whatever work they're like they're gonna be committing themselves to 50 60 hours a week; so the two red flags to me was this is most people will burn out really quickly; so what was probably more likely is she probably had someone sit around the back that should be offloading to work to or she was going to be over committing and trying to do two things. What happened to video interview she's there like all the time working on stuff in the background; while she's talking to me; she's like not giving me their full attention; so that was like; that was a signal I would not have got like, just an email and chat I couldn't tell that right? like I should take a bit of time to respond but there could be any reason but when you're actually having an interview and you can see them moving them out cooking and they're looking behind the stream you know like you were doing a minute ago but you can tell that they're multitasking and the whole point there is if I want to do for full-time I don't want you multitasking on the other job. When you're working on my stuff
Darryl: and as it turned out I went through three interviews for that particular role and the guys were just busting out of her skin to work. it was professional when it set up I asked them questions about his environment and so those are questions are asked to in your country you've got a reliable internet do you have a dedicated space to work you know, what happens in these scenarios, what if it's you need to work longer hours yeah you can't be sitting at the dining room table you know like those sorts of things because I understand from my local team that are all work from up for six or seven years; you need certain conditions meant to be productive as a work
Darryl: Does that answer most of the question?
Edmund: yeah, absolutely; absolutely and then once you've picked them so now that you've picked the right person to work with; how do you, what's the process, what are the tools that you use to task the work and track and monitor it
Darryl: (24:04 so the step between so depending on the type of frame) and variably always test people on work ____ developers
Edmund: Right, that’s it
Darryl: so I have some sample projects that I had that I get out regularly; so I might have; I'll set up if it's a front-end person that I want to integrate a Phd; I have a site that's already done and I have the PSD and I go go and do it and so I actually have one that's not publicly live they can't get copy CSS and stuff like that and I want them to do it; I pay them for and I get him to do this test but I'll say, I want you to do four hours’ work you know, I know from my experience while I should get roughly in four or six hours wide and so I paid him to do that and then there to ask me any question I'll be available any time; if it's a programmer; we will actually have some programming tasks that will give them; there's some clear instructions with some stuff missing and we will expect questions and answers about because if they're gonna do it; they need to know a couple of things about the setup of the code; that they would ask those questions or they will resolve them with experience and say I realized that you're missing this; I've done it this way but I realized it could be some other ways but I won't I didn't want to leave it out. All of these things showing initiative and (25:16) so we get them to do work and then I had that here; that peer reviewed to make sure you know it's up to a standard; so it's same way that you would if you were getting a copywriter you know, you might see you write this article before you publish it for a commit so you know; three articles a day; we go you know like you're not gonna be in
Darryl: so that; it's just an important part; so your question was well then how I manage them so I mentioned in our tools and tasks podcasting. I use Trello; Trello is project management so I the series of boards to run so if we have fixed projects; we have board per project, when we have a whole list of things from design stages decoding stages to testing stages etc… and we move those cuts through so that each team member is trained; so I have documents and said this is how you use Trello.
Darryl: We have video recorder so I use a product called use loom; now we didn't talk about that and
Edmund: I know it was a great tool; we should have
Darryl: yeah so I use use loom to record screencast videos; so I will do a standard operating procedure, I will do videos about key tasks; I'll link them in there and then I'll have examples of what I want and then that's how you do it; so that includes how to use our project management methodology in Trello so the way that we move tasks through when you notify me, when you notified the other developer, we like we even have like a tile on the trolley board which is the team on this task; so someone can see how that's the designer, that's the front-end, that’s the back end, that's the tester, that’s the content person and so they might be working on different projects for different people they know who they've got to pass it on to and so we moved stuff through and we have a whole process that moves it through.
Darryl: my job in project managing; the only I’m managing is I'm checking in on them, I'm looking at the workflow and I actually engaged so most of the tools that you employ them through have time tracking tools so you can see how many hours they've done this week
Darryl: you might look and go you know what? They did one hour yesterday; we've got like a deadline tomorrow and there's 10 hours’ work to be done like this doesn't; so I would; you know then I'm messaging them, talking to them but I have them all on my slack channel so I have everyone there where we're communicating, we've got certain channels for projects, we've got just general conversation so it's really as if it was in your office you know you're talking to the developer, what's going on; if they've got issues they bring it up; we answer them; we feed them out so it's really no different and for me having run my Australian based business with remote for five years is really native
Darryl: you know they just; no one was here even when they work down the road; they were at their house so you had the same issues; you've got to communicate well, you got a clear list of tasks and things that they've got to do whether it's individual tiles or checklist within a tile
Darryl: you know, you've got standards which you train them on which they follow you know and the tester knows the standard so and then when something moves into testing the tester holds the people accountable for the quality standards; I'd get included in those messages so if I've got one person whose standards are dropping that's when you have conversations never think different to someone working in your office. The difference is you have to really think about them as business entities in their own right? That if you haven't got them on full time even if you're given them lots of work you might have quite weeks and hey, you don't have to pay them if you're paying them by the hour by the project but they're gonna go looking for other work too; so you can't just suddenly turn up on Friday go hi, I need your Monday morning for this other project; I've just committed if you become incommunicative because they might be committed for two weeks and it would be unreasonable so if you don't commit to them you know, so you gotta let them know; I'm away I'll leave next week I'm gonna be a bit leaning on; you get in seven days’ notice they appreciate that; so again it's like you know you just go communicate share the project information, make sure that you train them, that they've got a reply so I'll have a lot of people go hey Darryl it's done and I'd be like; okay, there's four things in this card; what's done?
Edmund: okay, awesome; is there anything else that you think someone shouldn't be aware of about doing this. Is it; do you find that some businesses would be really afraid of doing it this way; stepping out of their comfort zone and you know not being able to eyeball the worker or the staff member that makes sure that they're doing it because there are you know some old school people out there
Darryl: well and not just old school, young school; I mean yes, people are I mean; we were all different and like I said, I resisted it lots of ways but I remember when I reckon went remote here in Australia. Initially and I would have other business colleagues that would say to me; how do you trust you staff? Like, how do you know what they're doing? I said well, there's so many benefits for them as the personnel and then screwing it up and having to go work in some office somewhere else; is a real problem; for a lot of them it was like no travel costs, no food cost,
Darryl: you get more flexibility; if they're gonna run than the (30:29) or whatever lots of flexibility because all we were cared about was stop thinking about watching the clock and I was really bad like; I was a bad boss in the office because I always thought like (30:41) opening hours calling out; were they here on time; you hear; you're like that and it was because it was a visual kit in my old-school brain was like that; you asked our employees when I was ask about that; for no apparent reason and then the next day I got one (30:56) like that right? And I was able to just wipe that
Darryl: with the remote stuff because it was about achieving results so you know, there were rules, there's always gonna be someone answer the phone between these hours so those people means if someone needs to be there but the rest of it was I know how long it takes to do a design; I know how long it takes to do this stuff and most people have a gut feel for that; if not a lot of experience in their business you know, I know how long it takes to write an article and if it's fixed price look it doesn't really matter you say, What your deadlines are? So I go a lot of people said how do you trust them? So I trust them completely; I just managed to work; if the works getting done at the end of the day well go extreme
Darryl: you remember that guy that was employed. I can't remember where and he had like 20 people working for you that's really a part time job and he acts; he was just like watching YouTube videos all day and managing them and they set them but he was like one of the highest performing producers; there's like hey, kid get it done; if you're not breaching privacy rules all the rest of it; the works getting done just
Darryl: that's the goal. So I think yeah, you will be afraid, you'll be worried and you have to understand legal stuff like you might not be able to put your data in the hands of people like that but make sure you get them signed and confidentiality but make sure you have a video interview and mix their really clear about your obligations and stuff but the end result is you get so much more variety and an option to choose people to do stuff that it actually can be really exciting. I have; I have a team of people that everyday turn up so hey, what you got for me today, can you go for me now I wanted this more, I'd like to learn something new and people in their ruts and jobs when you have them in the office can get in the habit of I am here, I've done the work, I've done a good job then go home you know but the enthusiasm is people themselves for the work they want
Darryl: little variety and that keeps me doesn't it? So I think don't be afraid go and try and realize you will make mistakes so just find a man if it doesn't work in a week or two explain why; try fix it; if it doesn't work bye; you know, you don't have a commitment but you have to be committed to finding someone that work and not blaming everyone else because it could be you
Edmund: absolutely, I recognize that. So Darryl where can people go? If they want to find out more about you know learning to work with a remote team. How, where would they go?
Darryl: (33:09 I’ll up a couple of link ) to some blogs and sites there's color ebooks and stuff like I mentioned earlier that will be good resources a lot of them are based around getting a virtual video, virtual assistant
Darryl: but in reality what that means is anyone that can do the task and like I said; I know a guy that has House Strassman based offshore does the work train - is standard. he reviews it in and out and make sure it meets his standard but he doesn't do all of that elements so there's no limits to the work that you want of being done; like you talk about you know you can get anywhere out there are sites that have really high level, highly qualified people to do task.
Darryl: So it's just about finding
Edmund: that's right
Darryl: what rights for your industry but I mean I'll reference in our show notes a couple of people that I've written up on this topic pretty well.
Edmund: Wow I thought that was an excellent episode; I think there's a massive amount of value in there and there's a massive about amount of upside to from learning how to do this correctly for your business and I think the key point that Darryl made was the fact that at the end of the day it comes down to us as the employer or the project manager and that's a skill that sometimes we all know we have to have to step up and learn as well you know, managing projects and managing people. Mate is that; I reckon; that’s it for the day? What do you reckon?
Darryl: Yeah; I think it’s pretty good; and I think and the other thing is you know, sometimes just someone doing a five hour task every week; just fixes your week; so it doesn't have to be a full-time employee; if's someone that steps in and does this one thing for you every week that helps you deliver a service to your customer; five hours a week and suddenly that stress comes off you. You're not letting your clients down, you're delivering your service without losing sleep and you know like, it can be really effective, so don't limit yourself, try and try these things as a message go and try; finding ways to make you a day to day work like that
Edmund: that's awesome; alright, that's it for today. Thanks again for listening. We really appreciate having you along for the ride. If you want to see the show notes get access to the resources that we talk about and get notified about new episodes, just visit bloodywebsite.com or subscribe to the podcast at iTunes or Stitcher. Also if you enjoyed this podcast please leave a review in iTunes it really helps other people to find the podcast and we hope to see you next week when we will continue this chat about my bloody website. It's goodbye from me
Darryl: And it’s good bye from him