34: Do You Respect The Effort it Takes

Darryl: Hi and welcome to “The My Blood Website” podcast where we talk about all things online especially for small and medium business owners and marketers. I'm Darryl King. I've been running my web agency for 25 plus years, my co-hosts Ed Pelgen has been running his online marketing agency for just as long. Our goals; to cover things in a way anyone can understand and can improve how they use online in their business. We're about to do Episode 34, it is the 5th of July 2018 and this topic is - Do You Respect the Effort it Takes. How you going Ed?

Edmund: I'm going great Darryl. How about yourself mate?

Darryl: ok, excellent; so to our US listeners. Yesterday was Independence Day - 4th of July. Happy Independence Day. Like to keep in theme a little bit. You know, when countries go through things like revolutions and independence and all these sorts of things. There's a hell of a lot of effort from a whole hell of a lot of people like is involved to turn events around and that leads to our topic of you know; how much if it does it take to do something well, how much if it does it take to get success and that's kind of where we want to go today. I think.

Edmund: So Yeah, I mean; where did this start for you? Why is this topic so close to heart today?

Darryl: well, a lot of times when doing project scoping it could be for a website, it could be for software anyone that works a requirement side of the business you know, business analysis. I often meet stakeholders that need something snappy. I want to next week, we've got a deadline, we've got this and there's a real lack of respect for the effort that goes into getting something done right and once people go through that process; I think, they get a bit of appreciation and it's not exclusive to software development or website development or anything else. I think you'd see it in you know SEO campaigns and everything else but there's a; there's two sides that one engaging people to do it with you but the other part is if you're gonna do it yourself like and ultimately everyone's responsible for their business. so then that's where it's coming from me it's that; I'm seeing a lot where people kind of go; ah I didn't think it would take so long or really it'll take that long or they just stop; so they start with good intentions they just never I let's just get on with it; we'll do it as we're building Ed; all things like that;

Edmund: Hmmm

Darryl: what about you? Do you get that that experience?

Edmund: yeah, I mean; I mean most I guess most people in our space will see this come through in terms of pricing and I'll go; oh, I've only got this much of a budget and it's like; well, haven't I; haven't I discussed how much effort it's gonna take to do this which translates to hours. Right? So there's that issue as well but despite that I see people all the time just not respecting the commitment and the effort that it takes to do anything. Right? And, yeah

Darryl: yeah, I mean that's a really good point and have you used the analogy of getting fit or losing weight. My favorite expression around Ed is you know; I didn't put on the 10 kilos in a week

Edmund: that's right

Darryl: it grew on me over time. You know; I invested in put it on that way over yeah by eating certain things. Your body just doesn't go; you know what? You splurged to this weekend. I know you had three Big Macs and then a couple of beers and all the rest of it. We’re gonna dump five kilos of that straight on. It doesn't work that way. It can process, it's the consistent ongoing stuff (3:23…?)

Edmund: yeah, what's your saying? What’s your saying? Give us this thing.

Darryl: success is a few simple disciplines, practiced every day; while failures are simply a few errors in judgment repeated every day

Edmund: that's right

Darryl: yeah, it's a little bit about; not quite; you know, it's there but it's the same thing you know; to lose weight you have to be consistent and persistent and do it; it'll get fitter you know if you want to lift more weight; whatever it might be; gonna ride along a distance and the same thing is true. If you wanted to do SEO really well yourself. Right? You; there's tactics and there's strategies but before all of that comes knowledge. Isn’t it?

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: like; like if you started Ground Zero today. I've got a website or I want to build a website. I've got no idea how to do search engine optimization for it and I don't have a budget just to pay people to do it. You can't start doing it without acquiring knowledge

Edmund: that's right; that's right

Darryl: so the first thing you've got to do is put time into acquiring knowledge and then having acquired the knowledge you might then appreciate how much effort that tactics take right? And so the same thing is true like, I can often hear it. I had a case of someone building software and they had come to me because the project wasn't going great and they had confusion with the development team about what the outcomes they were going to get and things just weren't working the way they want and all of the discussions and deliberations around this were; you know; some mock-ups; very simple that come and done and lots of verbal conversations. There was no overarching document set. Now; for when I looked at it; when I worked there. I looked at two sections of it and I think I came up with nearly 40 or 50 hours of spec work to answer all the questions I would look at you know; because there was some; there was some things that had like four screens but the underlying thing it was doing; was actually really really complex right; like, it was like you know and people don't realize how much effort; they just see the output; oh, look see that beautiful acreage, it's mowed it looks lovely; I want a acreage right?

Edmund: Yeah (5:37)

Darryl: I want a big massive green frontage with trees right; but they're not there after the winds come and there's twigs and branches everywhere and crap or when it's overgrown and I sit on the right on month for hours; like, so everyone sees the output in the outcome that they want; oh, that's software; it can't be that hard, it's just some screens; I can mock them up but they don't understand the database technology

Edmund: Yeah

Darryl: all the logic you've got to talk about in debate

Edmund: yeah, I mean; it's you know the classic example we were talking; we were talking about yesterday on that website client in hell is that the guy goes you walks in and fixes his computer up right and it's almost a cliché everyone knows this story; right? The guy's got a broken computer or whatever it is, a big problem you know; it's the guy says it's gonna cost you this much to fix it. That the guy walks in he looks at it and he sees the problem and it takes him two minutes to fix. The guy goes oh, I’m not gonna pay you for that. you only took; you just say it's like well ,he took in years to know, to figure out all this stuff to be able to do that; right, I mean and

Darryl: that's right; well there is a funny there's a funny (6:36…..? story a ….? little bit) you know what a dragline is, the big dragline to do stuff and so when they're operating you know they; they're working out you know say a cost of $100,000 an hour to run this thing right; and the production that makes is you know; it's producing stuff that turns into a million bucks now, whatever it might be; so when the dragline has a problem the whole thing stops. All these guys are off line, machineries off line it's a big problem; so they fly in the expert; expert will Tim asked some 7 questions walks around it walked up to the side of this big machine and gets out a big wrench and smacks the side of this machine pushed by the whole thing fires up again and then there's this; that; this invoice comes and it's; it's got the two line entry; so, one hitting the machine making it work again you know one hundred fifty-three dollars; well, no I say a hundred dollars and the item 2 knowing where to hit you know nine thousand nine hundred dollars right? And that's the thing right?

Edmund: and I wondered like; it's interesting because; is it because; because and this goes for when we're talking about not respecting the effort it's gonna take for you to do something as well as not respecting the effort that it's gonna take someone else to do something; does it come from a place of ignorance; I don't know? Because I've got a classic story didn't tell you. I myself and another guy paid traffic guy he said dude we've got to go in and cut in this job and I need you to come because we're gonna talk a CEO and I said alright; where is it? and it's in the Hinterlands up; he runs it's a; it's a dairy I won't name the dairy but we drove, he drove up from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast and we drove up and we met the principals and it was the funniest thing because we sat down we walked through did a tour of the business talked and the guy set us down and said you know; I done really believe in this online marketing stuff; so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna set you a test budget, I'm gonna give you 300 bucks 300 bucks to spend for me and prove to me that this works and then I said what each and he said no for the both of you so just put that in perspective the guy next to me he's average hourly rate that he charges is with two hundred dollars and

Darryl: You drove there for two hours just to get

Edmund: and we driven up and I looked at the guy and I said did you not; I mean; I was shocked because I mean; here's a guy running a multi-million dollar business and here he understands the effort that's required to raise a cow and to get milk out of the damn thing. Did he really think?

Darryl: I don’t know if ignorance is the right word. I think in some instances

Edmund: it felt really low bully you know what I'm saying

Darryl: yeah well I know, we're probably gonna have some topics coming up when we talk about budget but the effort thing is a lot of us just don't appreciate it but there's a ignorance, arrogance I don't think any of them really come into play. I think it's just the fact that we don't know

Edmund: We don’t know

Darryl: and we a lot of people aren’t expending the effort to understand

Edmund: what's (9:29…?)

Darryl: and you know there's a lot of culture that talks about; you know; beat people down; do this; whatever; you know, it's all about you winning; all of those things are just wrong mindsets; it's understanding that; well, you know we think; I heard it for years; now well, my brother's neighbor's son can do where you know they doing and blah blah blah and you see the outcomes right? You see the value of experience but you also get ah you know I don't like it because it's got no content on it, it's got the resources well what did you think; the 15 year old guy was gonna do; what? write your content for you as well and you gave him like 30 bucks for the whole site; like it just doesn't work; so a lot of it is just not thinking through you know and we live in great times, we go and have to think about how a jug of milk turns up in our fridge apart from; well, how we think about it is oh, I've got to go out this weekend and buy some and milk. I've gotta go and do the groceries. we don't; we're not connected every day to these awesome outcomes and you know none of us sit here and go; you know this great laptop and these you know; the screens and the microphone; all these things have put together; we just take them for granted; the smartphones; we don't live in hard times; we don't live in times where we're hands-on; we all live in you know; you've got the white collar on the day; we live in white collar world's a lot of us; you don't even blue collar to degree like if you're in higher up. they tend to see it you know; if you're building and building you know the effort you know the problems but in the; in the office you know, the architect has experience; he gets it but the client goes; well, why are these big problems you know you think about when pool builders go to build a pool and all them you know they'll quote for the pool and the rest of it and it'll be these caveats in there it says; but we don't include additional costs for hitting rock or other problems because they can't see what's in the ground. so they can't do it; so once you start doing it and I hit rock you know it's gonna be another week of smashing through this with machinery and all the caustic chores; person gets all uptight about it's like was in the cause you know there was always a chance; the only way for you to mitigate that is for you to dig down there yourself and see if there's any rock;

Edmund: Yeah

Darryl: well you didn't want to do that effort so people liked the positive outcome; they don't like to think about worst case cuz it were all hopeful you know there will always be positive. Whereas if you go you know what this might take longer than I expect. This might have more problems and then; you know; you can only be pleasantly surprised but I think with software and websites and all these other intangibles. It’s all hidden and it's all smoke and mirrors to most people because they don't know about technology

Edmund: That’s it

Darryl: so they don't have a bench back like you know; like if you've ever done DIY and you've; it was so hard and I was so bad at it. I don't want to do it. I want the Builder to come in or car builder and fix that thing for me

Edmund: Yeah

Darryl: but you know whereas I think the people that have done it themselves that have struggled through it a few times ago and you know what? That’s gonna be like; from my perspective; those are the clients that never questioned me about effort; right? don't come back and say well you know three point two five hours to do that thing you know that; well that's what it took my team; like we; you know; that's what we build right to do it right? they go hey, I've spent four nights; I'm late when I needed to focus on my business, my family you know and they; so I think that's probably the problem because nine year old plus percent of people don't do it themselves

Edmund: yeah I guess in our space too. One thing looks like another thing. At the end of the day if it's a digital product and digital output right; where one is may work and one may not work and they don't recognize him out of effort. So yeah I guess so; I guess its incumbent on people not just us but any customers to try to educate people; why? like if I went into a picture; I've quote over to someone selling SEO for 300 bucks and I say jeez that's like 2 or 2 enough hours the team right; it's; what can we do for that and then it's I guess; it's incumbent on me to try to educate and say look, this is why that's an unreasonable price for our time or the effort required to get you a good result. Right? Because X Y Z right; I mean, you're gonna get in trouble, it's gonna your whatever what it is; so maybe that; that it; that's one of the things; I need to; do I need to educate them so that they do respect the time

Darryl: the two sides of coin; the person that is on the other end needs to understand; they have; they're obliged to get an idea to but I think there's another problem to that quite often people it's easy to sell packages when you look at marketing stuff; we talked about in last week's episode about you know, the reality check on just doing what someone else does. It’s much easier to follow the path of selling a package

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: than selling an hourly rate because we all have a budget; everyone has a budget even if it's a large budget and so you need to know; is it gonna blow out? Right? so if I just give you an hourly rate; you gotta; but; how long is that going to take and that; and some tasks is difficult; others is like well we're going to do three hours of X this month; that's what's going to take; so when you sell a package price; someone says; all they're looking at is do I see the value in the number rather than selling it as time; so even when we sell or you know, we put together packages like this is the total cost on a website; invariably there's a breakdown of project management testing, design phase, programming phase, things like that

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: for larger projects so that people get a sense of ah, because you know there are limits to these things but I think it's um; you'd see it even in copywriting Ed?

Edmund: yep

Darryl: that people go on and do a blog but they don't respect the time it's gonna take or I'm gonna record videos or whatever it might be; if we're going to do; if we're gonna produce content marketing and they go well, like I want you to do an article a month for me but good copywriting is about research; you know, drafting the copy, checking it meets its goals, getting it you know in theory edited and checked and all the rest of it; a lot of people don't do that; then they wonder why they're not getting results

Edmund: it's interesting; I wonder whether some of the issue too is incorrect expectations you know, everyone is like; we see all these gurus doing things and getting a result and we think, I should if I just do this; I want the results straight away; they expect; they want; they expect too much too soon; Well

Darryl: I think it all just comes down Ed; it's a little bit like; yes, people can do a better job of educating them; now, that the trick is; if you're in an agency's mindset or a freelancer you have to be prepared to say no I won't do that work for you for that price and that's where it gets tricky because some clients will always find something we'll do; someone that will do it for the price they want;

Edmund: Correct

Darryl: and it doesn't mean they get a good result you know, red flag for me is someone that's been through five different people you know, they're all useless, they all don't do what I want them to do you know, then in my mind; I hear that phrase you know; you know yeah; you can't rip it up over the same thing you know maybe you need to look in the mirror; right? Maybe it's not them right? kicking the same problem; so I think there's that aspect of everyone that's on that service delivery side has to do a better job of explaining it and also the honors treatment because we read these stories where you know Facebook just got built ; it's big or these guys; everyone wants you to become a software entrepreneur you know, software is gonna eat the world and now it's AI and all the rest of it that you know that's great but knowing how to do it properly, knowing how to do it; takes time and planning it properly, specking it out so that you do get great results from whoever puts it together; it takes a lot of time you know, like if you and I think the best thing for people to do is to step back and say how long does it take to pick something off the shelf; wrap it, mark it up for postage and get to the post office in shipment or get the courier in; you know, when they're analyzing their own business they know those variables, they go you know, what if we get; if we get a 30% increase in online sales; you know, Korea costs go up; we have to plan that better; you know, people get frustrated that; they work that out because they see the direct impact

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: but when I buy the product and I get cranky about it. I wanna take so long; why do you have a shipping cost? so a lot of people try to explain that and you know, or they try to manage those variable things; you know, and but it's no different when you're doing something that you can't see; you know, a really good example is between you and you go; how'd you do that CSS thing; oh, I don't

ED/Darryl: (18:24)

Darryl: but you know what I mean like and you go; I tried to get it to do this and you know after 45 minutes I gave up and then the guy that does it all the time or the girl that does it all the time drops in and 12 minutes later they've done it; so is it worth an hour of your time or it’s are worth 12 minutes of their time which one's it actually worth that's what's the value and so you should always look at it and say how long does it would it take me to do the same thing; oh that's just an easy thing to do; you know. Like you know I've got Photoshop, I could design the logo, we'll go ahead and do it

Edmund: that's right; I mean maybe and maybe that's the core of this right do you respect the effort it takes; is to stop and think about how long it would take you to do how long did it take you to learn your craft. right? and think of all the tips and the tricks and the knowledge means that that you have that you give to your clients that gives you a competitive opportunity that allows you to deliver a better service to them; think about it from the service providers perspective or whatever that is because we ultimately we're talking about you know doing things like marketing and whatnot

Darryl: yeah

Edmund: so it's being more is it just more insightful considerate thinking about the other person thinking about what's involved?

Darryl: yeah well and; I think you talked about realistic expectations a while back in this session and that's the thing; like, last time we were talking about you know what's the return on investment you're gonna get out of what you're doing; like get a reality check on

Edmund: hmm

Darryl: so the flip side is; what that you are actually trying to achieve that this that that you need this thing for; whether you're doing it yourself or you're engaging someone else to do it; how important is it; so then that helps to create a value equation; right? so if you're selling if you sell hundred thousand dollar machines right you know whatever; and you want to sell two more of them a month; it doesn't sound like a lot to more sales to more leads a month that convert so that might mean you get ten leads from your web properties a month then you can do it you know one in; it's like two and ten how much effort would you do if you had someone running around cold calling and doing it you know full-time guy or girl might be doing that work and you pay all this money and I'm not trying to equate money but as an expectation as a sales manager or anything you would go they're gonna do this many calls and you break it down and formulas and they're basically working twenty five thirty hours a week on reaching out and networking, sending proposals and doing all the stuff; so a lot of effort; right?

Edmund: hmm

Darryl: to get few more sales every month; why are you not thinking that way? When you look at your online activity you know and not; it's not; it's not about that; oh, you'd spend the same money I mean there's arguing - say why wouldn't you? Then you know like you can double your efforts but you do get really sophisticated but how would you expect just to generate leads from an hour a week you know like if that's the effort you put in

Edmund: hmm

Darryl: and that's the problem; oh, I stuck it up there and it works but you don't say that about the sales rep or the service manager; oh, I just got them surely it just all takes care of itself; you have process, you understand that they actually expend hours to get it done. so if you want to sell these machines online you've got all this time and improving the copy; if you're going to do the work to market them through social mechanisms or you know through organic or paid ads; you don't just do the work four or five hours to set up the basic campaign and then not go back and look at it; you don't you know and I think that it really does all come back to not understanding what happens under the hood; you know, people that run pay-per-click campaigns badly and then get someone good they pay them to do it but they don't really necessarily know that they’re managing negative keywords, they're looking at stuff that hasn't performed well and removing it And

Edmund: (22:17)

Darryl: and the cost per click stay down the budget spends better; they're not reviewing landing pages; you just go oh, the magic happen; so yeah it's a hard one but I think if you want your online business to work better which is what the podcasts; what we're trying to do

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: you need to get a really good respect for the amount of works it takes and why is that Ed? Why do they need a really good respect? Because then they could make; because then they can make really good decisions about can I invest the time

Edmund: that's right

Darryl: or am I going to pay someone else to do it; as I know next week we're gonna talk about the money side of the value equation but that's why; so if you respect it really well; you then understand the value equation

Edmund: that's it; you're right; and it leads to making better decisions because the people who don't respect it inevitably end up bitching and complaining about the price or the cost or the quote or the effort or the outcome without understanding what's involved and they get a shitty result;

Darryl: which will too long; well I thought off; because it will; they think oh, the time it took they go I thought you'd get it done today;

Edmund: Hmm

Darryl: I'm like 30 hours a week you know like I think we saw; you reference clients from hell; people that don't know what it is clientsfromhell.com is a site where creative has put up conversations they have with clients that just the fuddle you and you know like someone was you know someone; there's one example of someone sent through a brief at 9 p.m. at night and then texted the creative at 6 a.m. in the morning and said you know; is the work done? I know; first off; first off; it's like 18 hours worked and it hasn't even been 8 hours; 18 hours you sent it and you know, no we don't work that way but so it's like; it's like and you would think that you your comment about that site when you look at; it is always I can't believe people think that way or behave that way but they do

Edmund: that's it and you know maybe that's; that's why that site exists because not enough people respect the effort it takes to do things and that's truly it is what it is and I think it maybe come back to the point that they can't see what we do; you know, creative people or online people because it's like you said; it's not like building a house where you can sit and watch the poor bastard carry bricks up the wall it's boudu stuff according to them; maybe that's what it is

Darryl: yeah; it could be

Edmund: What do you reckon Daryl?

Darryl: I reckon more respect

Edmund: more respect

Darryl: for effort more respect for effort understand the effort yeah

Edmund: that's right; you reckon we're done per day?

Darryl: I reckon we are

Edmund: awesome, well that's it today; Thanks again for listening. This is a real good episode. I enjoyed this one. They’re quite entertaining. Thank you for listening, we really appreciate having you along for this ride. If you want to see the show notes get access to our resources we talked about, get notified when the next episode goes live. Visit bloodywebsite.com or subscribe to the podcast on apple podcast or stitcher, also if you enjoyed this podcast please leave a review in Apple podcast. It really helps wonderful people discover this podcast and learn more. We hope to see you next week where we're gonna continue the chat about my bloody website. It’s goodbye from me.

Darryl: It’s goodbye from him